Tracker - barriers for live performance / live arranging

Tracker
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Here’s what I want to be able to do with my Tracker for live performances:

  1. Arrange patterns live
  2. Readily modify instrument parameters and effects (cutoff freq, reverb send, delay settings etc.)

I keep running into barriers that keep me from being able to do this. It feels like you need to choose one or the other, currently. Please let me know if there are things I am overlooking here. I’m using the OG, but it seems like the issues would be the same on the Tracker+. There are some existing wishes and some potentially new ones that individually could enable what I want to do.

I think live arranging patterns enables really fun improvisation for live performance. Pattern mode is great for live performance because you can easily jump between patterns, you can organize the patterns in the grid in ways that help make visual sense, you can easily mute tracks, and it looks cool: the trackers lines are whizzing by while the grid buttons are lighting up. However, you can’t easily modify instrument/FX parameters from here. You can get to them through some page jumping, which I’ve gotten ok with, but it’s not very immediate.

Potential fix #1: My ideal wish would be expanded midi cc input so that you could control instrument and FX parameters readily. Obviously, you can’t control every parameter of all 48 instruments. So my suggestion would be to add a midi learn / custom midi mapping where you specify what parameter you want to control and move the knob/button/fader on your midi controller to map to it. I added that idea to the existing related wish.

It would open up the possibilities for live performance immensely. You could be controlling the cutoff of your acid bass while sending your snares to a delay that’s building in feedback, queue your next pattern, and as it drops, kill the feedback, and jam on the cutoff knob :smiley: :dancer:t5::dancer:t5:

No idea the feasibility of this. But here are some other potential approaches that would allow for live arranging / parameter control. I love the performance mode, it’s a great concept that makes live jamming really fun. You can’t achieve the above description, because any changes here have to be applied to all activated tracks. But that’s fine. My main issue with performance mode is that it is not conducive to live arranging. It pairs specifically with song mode so that you can either let your linear arrangement play through or loop single patterns. But in an improv live performance I don’t want to have to plan that I will go from pattern 1 to 2 to 3 to 1 to 4. I want to decide that on the fly. Performance mode allows you to change patterns per track but there is no ability to change all at once. It is possible to change them each manually, but this leaves a lot of room for error.

Potential fix #2: An option to change the pattern for all tracks in performance mode.
This would enable live arrangement and allow access to parameter control. There is another barrier in performance mode that could potentially be fixed to allow live arranging. The issue is that when you go from performance mode to pattern mode, the performance changes will drop after the current pattern reaches its end.

Potential fix #3: If there was an option to keep performance effects enabled while on pattern view, then you could use the existing midi CC controls to change parameters.

My current workaround to achieve live arranging and do some live parameter control is this:
Live arrange using pattern mode, pan bass parts left, and other parts right. Handle them as separate mono channels on my bluebox, which I use (with an external controller) to either filter or send to delay/reverb. I would love to be able to handle more of this in the tracker! It’s certainly capable of it.

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i think they want this too but are plagued by a problem with sync between tracks where they fall out of sync when they are manually changed and they dont know why or how to fix it, and probably dont wish to because its expensive to keep coders working on something they arent selling many of. but things like these are usually the main reason they move to faster processors. meanwhile they have decided not to fix it because what is there works… i mean the song sequencer. and of course the ethos of the old trackers… they can claim that it doesnt fit with the ‘vision’ when the real problem is a bug they cant fix. so they decided not to make it usable in real time by those who want tactile control over performance. they did make dsp processes respond to realtime input but hesitate to go further into live control of patterns because it may open a can of worms so to speak, as well as obligate them to keep going forward down the same pathway. so i would love it if they made it work for realtime control but i doubt it will happen honestly. i am excited to be proven wrong but im not holding my breath. i have resorted to another master sequencer (MPC 1000) and reduced my tracker to a single track of live control, (instrument mode) when id love to control all tracks from live midi input. but im afraid they can claim its not the ‘vision’ they intend to bring, and that means we will probably never see this side of tracker / + realized. its a fine line… giving the buying public too much vs not quite enough, so they have an actual reason to buy the next product on the retail conveyor belt. how can they sell you the next one if this one is perfect already? its the reality in business. because its clear that they are not trying to stick to a classic tracker ethos when they give you multi channel output over usb or a ton of sample time. its pretty easy to delineate that the audio over usb was probably easy to implement and was made to compete with elektron devices. how easy was it to give you twice the sample ram? or to make it smaller? a hand held? now who has done that recently? i think its too hard to make realtime control work like it should. i would love to look like a fool on this one, because a little focus on live control is what tracker / + is missing! it could be amazing but they settle for ‘selling’ and ‘selling again’. gotta have a vision! and there it is.

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That is why mine has been packed away, as the device is not finish and I have the feeling that Polyend is digging their company into a deep Black hole.

I paid around 800 € for the plus and the support updates has not been satisfying. More of the bagpackers claim that the last update in november with usb input sampling is enough, which is a joke for me.

Conclusion:
I dont buy new Polyend products anymore, as the money seems to go into product development of the next device and not support and Development of the purchased product.

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my 2 cents on this is : embrace the tracker for what it is. What @jkiss wants to achieve is easily done with Renoise. Midimaping everything in Renoise and jam away. Don’t be angry because your toothbrush does not make you coffee. Get to know your Tracker OG inside out, it will teach you so much (faboulous machine, i’ll never trade mine against anything).

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I’m not mad. I love this machine. I have used it inside and out since I got it in 2021. To me, the UI is unmatched. The workflow is a dream to me.

I also see the value in limitations that force creative decision making. I genuinely like that the og does not have synths, the sample ram is limited, samples are mono, only 8 tracks, etc. This is why I don’t feel I need the T+. I actually kinda wish I didn’t get those extra 4 midi tracks because to me it slightly undermines the immediate relationship between hardware and software: 8 buttons, 8 tracks. I just make sure I don’t pan over to them. (whatever, side tracked!)

If midi mapping is a step too far, that’s fine. But some of these suggestions are very minor that would open up the possibility for live arranging alongside live parameter control. I don’t think it’s like asking my toothbrush to make coffee. When the machine is 99% there, it’s more like I’m wishing my toothbrush could reach my molars. There are limitations that force creative decision making and there are limitations that are plain dead ends. Being forced to choose between either live arranging with difficult to achieve parameter control (that are built in but are just difficult to access - again not exactly coffee from a toothbrush) or parameter control but with a linear arrangement is a limitation that stifles creativity.

It’s disappointing to me that I have to consider other options when the tracker is 99% there. I could achieve this with renoise or the m8 (toothbrushes that make coffee, apparently haha :wink:), but I know the interface and workflow of those just can’t match the tracker for me.

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yeah we knew we would hear from the wizards who are fine with broken features that are clearly a part of the original vision but stop short of delivering. its great that you, mr wizard, dont have a use for working features that enable alternative workflows, but we do. its cool that youre fine being locked in to a list of patterns chosen before hand, and only one lfo or envelope. although they make decent results, wed like to use other methods. i personally dont have any loyalty to a tracker standard. i dont want to use a software tracker. honestly im mainly interested in the wavetable and granular oscillators, the saturation, overdrive and bit reduction. the general sound of the thing is pretty nice! its just disappointing when these realtime arrangement features dont work fully and were clearly intended to. its not like the sequencer part is so special that it must be a prerequisite for using the other nice parts of the machine. and i get it that for a long while there were major issues that have been worked through and what we have now is mostly a working device. i almost wish the non working parts that tease you with realtime access were removed because they dont work. then all the wizards could claim its fully working and we could get sorted into interested in the machine and not so interested. would be nice not to need to hear a wizards ‘voice of reason’

btw m8 sure does make coffee after youre done brushing your teeth! it doesnt have the great hardware of tracker og or wavetable/granular. wavetable is kind of a big deal! but i think ill go get a multipoly or a modwave soon. i didnt want to need to do that in order to satisfy my workflow desires. ah well, you live, you learn.

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You might be right, just let Polyend run down the current hill and a certain point they might hit the bottom off the mountain, where it really hurts. I don’t think the hit and neglect strategy is sustainable, but I might be wrong?

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